What kind of people are we?
My last blog (not untypically, come to think of it) was a bit of a rant, and I’m afraid this one is too. We’ll blame it on the painkillers rather than the fact that advancing years are making me grumpier every day, I think. 
Anyway, this one isn’t about any particular issue – it’s about people in general. I like people. I’m a bit of a Pollyanna and usually see the best in people. I trust people by default, and have only very rarely lived to regret that. I’m a bit of a social bird and I know and like lots of people. But aren’t there times when you just despair of the human race in general?
Let me cite a few examples. Well, for a start there’s that woman who started a Facebook page saying that Raoul Moat is a Legend because he kept the police at bay. OK, she’s a one-off, but what about the other comments made on that same page agreeing with her? Saying his ex-girlfriend was a whore, that if their ex-girlfriend behaved that way they hope they would have the guts to blow her away as well. Lovely. These, presumably are people with children.
Then there’s the new, in theory, good idea from the new Coalition government. Let’s ask people how they think we should save money. The site is here: http://spendingchallenge.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ (unless it’s hopefully been taken down or moderated before this blog is published).
Some ideas put forward by British voters to save the country money include:
“Move immigrants in council houses out of cities” (although another poster responds with “I’m not sure that I want to see immigrants living in our villages – keep them in the ghetto’s until such time as they can all be deported.”)
“Benefits claimants to work in sweatshops”
“Send the unemployed to Afghanistan as cannon fodder”
“Re-open the workhouses for the unemployed, the elderly and asylum seekers” – added to by suggesting “release could be conditional on getting sterilised.”.
There are worse, but I don’t want to give them air space.
But really, where have we gone so wrong for people to genuinely possess these values?
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Jane it's not a rant, it's you voicing what we are all thinking. It's unbelievable how people have responded and supported Moat.
As for the comments on immigrants, elderly and claimants of benefits – I find it hard to believe that we are an intelligent tolerant nation.
I shall address the second part you highlight Jane, we give these people a voice and then we tell them they are wrong for saying what they have said. Communication needs to be addressed, what is being said needs to be said, needs to be recognised and then education needs to take place.
What happens is people state their thoughts and they are deemed unsuitable/racist/sexist/ whatever ist is fashionable, then they are ignored. They feel their statement is validated and some extremists will take the matter into their own hands. Acknowledging in a small set of diverse circumstances that what they are saying, happens, and then going about educating and integrating the communities where the conflict is one solution but sadly they are looking to save money rather than spend. Communication and education is the key, then we all become better for it.
Great article , I too missed the rant
The silent majority are silent , they do not get involved overtly .
This leaves the good guys (us) , and a bunch of people who love spouting rhetoric whenever they can .
Should we censor people , my vote says not , but it remains an option. Vet comments before they are posted , though who would be wise enough to get it right is the stumbling block.
We just have to live with the fact that some computer literate people are annoying in the extreme , but ultimately harmless unless …
I think it's only a small minority of people who think and behave like this – but that isn't meant to minimise the problem it poses.
Perhaps it tends to happen more online because it is less acceptable than ever before in person – and also it's possible to be protected by anonymity – although that's not always the case. It is very distressing sometimes to read the hate filled comments on certain FB pages, or in online discussion forums, or on some news blogs. I'd guess a large proportion must be trolling, literally just to get a rise out of people and to be offensive for fun.
I think this kind of freedom to share views, however appalling, is something that is very new to us – and maybe it will take a while before we can all make the most of it. But the same freedom lies behind such things as wikileaks too, and can be just as much a positive force as a negative one.
I'm still very much an optimist about the possibilities.
Hmmm. I'd like to think you are right. But 42,000 people signed up to the RIP Raoul Moat – Legend site. 42,000.
Don't get me wrong – I'm not anti free speech at all. I just feel very concerned at what I learn from it.
Twitter: evenbreak
Yes, I agree. Censoring or suppressing people's views is likely to embed them further rather than change them. But surely some moderation, or corrections of factual errors. Or some kind of stated values about all human beings being equally valuable to put the spending cuts in the context of fairness.
“Kill all the Muslims” was one comment on there for quite some time. Now if that isn't fuelling existing persecution of valued communities in Britain, what is?
Twitter: evenbreak
Yes but of the 42 000 loads had been directed there by the news stories – I know of people who joined to disagree with the sentiments expressed.
If that was their comment Jane, it should be challenged and understood how they come up with that comment, and I know that sarcasm is badly got across on the internet, but it has to be delved into, and seen if that is what is was rather than a blanket “kill all muslims” comment. To the person who wrote that comment maybe their experience of the valued community has been different, and until we challenge and understand how their minds are working, the communication and education will never take place.
Look at certain parts of East London, families waited their time on the housing lists for their social housing. Then this was changed to a needs based points system. Families that new they had to wait 2 years for a home now had to wait 7. They got resentful, and they found ways around the system, like not marrying and all other sorts of dodgy dealings. 30 years later, with a lot of soul searching it was realised these policies were very damaging and the people who were meant to benefit, didn't and it affected whole areas as attitudes changed to cope with the very policies that were meant to help the vulnerable.
The whole Raoul Moat issue leaves me with a very nasty taste in my mouth – it seems to have brought out the worst in thousands of people.
Were those 42,000 FB sympathisers really regretful at the loss of Raoul Moat, or were they using his case as an excuse to bash the police and the law? And, for that matter the prison service who it's alleged ignored Moat's requests to see a psychiatrist some weeks before his release?
Well, as far as the prison service goes it has its problems, as a close relative has been discovering first hand while having an all expenses paid holiday courtesy of her Majesty. But with due respect to them it's likely that they receive thousands of requests like that every year from prisoners and nearly all of them are instances of “crying wolf.” Prison officers are that, prison officers – not clairvoyants.
Jane's absolutely right to despair of the human race. That's why I tend to prefer animals. Most of them – even the species we fear like sharks, snakes, crocodiles, etc – have their own codes of practice and provided that you know them, you can predict what their behaviour will be.
That's more than you can say for your average human NIMBY, dog-in-the-manger establishment-hater, or head-up-the-asshole fascist twit who's secretly terrified of “foreigners.”
Twitter: SuzeStMWrites
I think Jane has highlighted a really interesting thing about our society. We are all members of little tribes and tend to communicate most with the people who have the same values as us. When we come up against people en masse who have different values it gives us a shock.
What we all do of course is re-enforce the values and views of the tribe and the hardest thing for anyone to do is leave a group or community that gives them their identity.
Talking about education, communication and reasoning is using logic to respond to emotion and, as we all know, that very rarely works, especially when the emotions are deep felt, long held and validated by our nearest and dearest.
I still believe that the majority of people, as individuals, are decent but when in a group the dynamic changes and unfortunately, this is re-enforced by most of the media and the so-called entertainment industry that takes a small section of society and tries to make everyone think there is widespread epidemic.
The 42,000 people that Jane mentions is less than 0.1 of the adult population of the UK so I don't think its a significant number. As Steven says the voice of reason rarely gets an airing because it doesn't sell anything.
If you doubt this listen to Jeremy Vine today twisting an excellent invention (patches to deliver medicines usually delivered by hypodermic) into a scaremongering prediction of people being unable to given life saving injections.
In any cross section of society there will always be extremes but its only when they get to be a majority that we have to take notice and by definition that is hardly likely to happen. Until then, the best use of our energy is to try and keep the worse extremes of the media in check – which is where Twitter and other Social Media are so useful!
Great points Ann, thank you. Yes, it is the tribal thing, isn't it? And maybe it's a human need to belong to a specific group. And as individuals, we all belong to a number of different groups. It's when the groups turn on each other that the problems arise. And that will happen for a number of reasons – fear, ignorance, a perception that we're all competing for limited resources, media, education, religious teachings, badly thought-through government policy (as Sarah suggested) plus a whole load of emotional reasons that have little logical basis.
I was feeling particularly low when writing this blog, and I still think that basically the vast majority of people are well-intended, but sometimes when I see such hatred and malice that harms people I do wonder why we can't put more energy into looking out for each other rather than trying to spread hatred and prejudice.
But then, I'm just as guilty really. I'm putting myself above the people who agreed that Moat was a good 'un for giving the police the runaround, and above the people who think sterilising unemployed, disabled or foreign people is the way forward. I think that my values, and the people who agree with my values, are somehow better educated, nicer people. So how does that make me any different from them?
Twitter: evenbreak
Oh, I don't think its a case of 'putting yourself above' people who think differently or have different values but I do think its a product of eduction to be able to see other people's point of view and defend their right to express it even when you don't agree with it. Don't apologise for being intelligent enough to be able to communicate your ideas!
Have you read Steven Covey? He talks about circles of influence describes how we all have a Circle of Concern for things like those described above and that to be effective we need to seperate out the things we have no real control over and those things we can do something about (other than worry!). Those things we can do something about become part of our Circle of Influence. (Imagine this as a smaller circle inside the first one.)
If we focus on the Circle of Concern we end up feeling victimized, blaming other people for the state of things and re-inforcing a feeling of helplessness. As we believe there is little we can do about anything, this causes our Circle of Influence to shrink.
On the other hand, if we focus on the things in our Circle of Influence, the things we CAN do something about, we feel more powerful and in control of our lives and the creative, positive energy pushes out the boundaries of what we believe we can do so that the Circle of Influence increases and there is less room left in the Circle of Concern for the things we feel we can't influence.
Same old, same old …… the more powerful we are, the more powerful we feel and vice versa.
This doesn't mean that bad things won't happen to us of course but worrying won't affect that either, except to make us feel weak.
Just seen this on CNN , ill informed people sticking to everyone .. so we are not the only country to have oiks . The comments at the foot of the link speak volumes.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/07/19/sena…
Even CNN join in linking BP to al-Megrahi's release from Scottish prison and despatch back to Liby ,
.
Let’s not confuse the ignorant with the politically motivated. This attack on BP is so transparent it would make a stripper blush.
It is not a rant Jane. Interestingly as a good friend often says, it is worthwhile giving people such as this a chance to air their views then challenge them or point out why they might be wrong in their point if view as failure to do so might mean that they actually get to act on these views and harm someone in the process.
The veneer of civilisation is very thin. When people's basic needs are perceived to be threatened people react with their emotions and not their heads. Engage them in dialogue, but carry a big stick!